Free riding foreigners: the next NHS scandal

We heal the world – and you pay for it

23 February 2013

A fundamental and enduring principle of the NHS is that it is ‘free at the point of use’. All major political parties subscribe to this mantra and none dare challenge it. Herein lies the problem. The consequence of such altruism — all at the UK taxpayer’s expense — is health tourism and abuse of the NHS by ineligible patients. The general public seem unaware of this deception despite being rightly exercised about other examples of similar abuse, such as benefit fraud. How is this any different?

The rules and regulations laid down by the Department of Health governing eligibility for free NHS care are so porous, ineffective and difficult to enforce that they can be easily breached by would-be patients motivated enough to try. Those patients don’t come for the trivial stuff; the usual reason is a serious illness recently diagnosed in a country with poor or unreliable medical services — or where the best care is expensive and has to be paid for. The illness will probably require lengthy and resource-intensive treatment. Any health tourist planning to breach the rules of entitlement will find that the Department of Health’s online guide — ‘Eligibility for free hospital treatment under the NHS’ — provides the essential information and identifies the loopholes.

It must be explained why the NHS is more vulnerable to exploitation than comparable health systems which are as good as ours, such as those in Scandinavia, Germany, Holland and France. These countries have an insurance or employer-based service: patients have personal identification to prove entitlement, which acts as a barrier to abuse. Proof of entitlement is deemed unnecessary in the UK because NHS services are ‘free at the point of use’. This deficiency is compounded by the fact that many, if not most, transgressors are invisible to our feeble screening systems. Even when a potentially ineligible patient is identified, hospital managers are likely to give them the benefit of the doubt because the situation is usually clinically urgent and the fear of a potential complaint or, worse, a legal challenge, is often overwhelming. (Clinical urgency must be distinguished from emergency in terms of eligibility. The former need treatment soon — but not necessarily here — while the latter should be offered immediate treatment on a ‘good Samaritan’ basis.)

I have worked for the NHS for 43 years, 31 as a consultant surgeon. Several years ago I went with my father, a retired coal miner, to see the monument on the hillside overlooking Ebbw Vale which commemorates the life of Aneurin Bevan, his hero. I believe that the NHS is precious and should not be misused. Perhaps the most important statement in the recent report by Robert Francis QC into the Mid Staffordshire scandal was that we have a ‘statutory duty of candour’ — i.e., health professionals should feel supported and protected should they ever need to speak out. It is in that spirit that I write this article.

I am frustrated at seeing the NHS targeted by patients who are ineligible for free care, but who usually get through the net. Specialist units may be especially vulnerable. Reluctantly, I have decided to share my concerns. The final trigger to write this article was a potentially ineligible patient who accused me of unethical behaviour because I would not promote his application with my Trust for immediate and free NHS care. In any event, it is not the doctor’s job to decide on eligibility, but often it is only at the time of the initial or even subsequent consultations that the breach is first recognised.

At this point, where does the doctor stand with regard to ‘Good Medical Practice’ as defined and enforced by the General Medical Council? Their document states that every patient has the right to privacy and to confidentiality. So if a potentially ineligible patient has been overlooked by the screening system and is first identified by a doctor, should the doctor report their suspicion, bearing in mind that the patient will know how they had been exposed? If the patient is deemed to be eligible on appeal, which is usually the case, then the doctor may have to defend a charge of professional misconduct and risk the opprobrium of their Trust.


The Department of Health has abrogated its duties by delegating responsibility to individual hospitals. But the ‘Eligibility Officers’ at each hospital have a near impossible task, because the guidelines they have to follow are vague and open to interpretation. Moreover, ineligible patients are often familiar with the guidelines and can exploit their ambiguities.

The Department of Health states that NHS treatment is free to those who are ‘ordinarily resident’ in the UK, meaning that they live here ‘on a lawful, properly settled basis’. But on this score, there is a long list of exemptions. For example, any student on a minimum six-month course in the UK is eligible for free NHS care. Once treatment is started, it cannot be stopped because that would amount to an infringement of the patient’s human rights.

British citizens who have lived abroad for more than six months, even if they have paid tax in the UK during that time, are ineligible. This rule would apply to British citizens who have worked abroad for years and to those tens, if not hundreds, of thousands who took early retirement to live in the sun. Rest assured, though, there is no need to panic when you need a hip replacement or stents for your coronary arteries or when you find that nasty cancer. Return to the UK and stay with a relative or rent a property if you don’t already own a home. You may find you are still registered at your old General Practice. If not, a temporary or permanent registration with a GP is easily obtained. Better still, present yourself to an NHS hospital as if you had never been abroad. Almost certainly you won’t be identified or challenged. (It’s a good idea, though, not to show the mammogram from Cyprus, the colonoscopy report from Spain or the CT scan from Thailand.) Answer ‘Yes’ to the question: ‘Are you taking up or resuming permanent residence in the UK?’ Nobody will check.

What if you are not British, but resident in the European Union? Again, no problem. Say that you plan to relocate and, at worst, you may be asked to prove that you have rented a property or asked to produce a utility bill in your name. It is unlikely that you will be asked to show evidence from an estate agent that your foreign home is for sale, but anyway that is easy to obtain and would support your case. No one will know that you have no intention of accepting even the most generous offer on the sale of your house abroad or, indeed, that you have multiple properties. The process is much easier if you stay with a relative or friend who is already resident in the UK, because you can explain that they alone can support you through your illness and treatment. Again don’t volunteer the MRI scan from Greece or the PET scan from Portugal which will prove that your condition was diagnosed only days or weeks before you decided to relocate to the UK. After treatment in the UK you can return home, because no one will ever check that you kept your relocation pledge. If they do, you can say that you failed to settle and decided to return abroad. It’s that easy.

What if you are not a citizen of the EU? A bit more difficult, but not insurmountable. A valid visitor’s visa will allow you to obtain GP services and an NHS number legally. From there, with some initiative and persistence, it is not too difficult a step to access expensive and long-term medical care.

There is also anecdotal evidence that is even more frightening but undoubtedly true. There are stories of heavily pregnant women arriving in the UK because childbirth qualifies for emergency care and the child would be British, thereby providing the mother with residency rights. There are tales of families relocating because a child has severe congenital or acquired illness and of large numbers of patients with HIV coming to the UK because that is their only hope of getting effective treatment. There are even stories of patients landing at Heathrow in kidney failure and being blue-lighted to hospital for dialysis.

Anyone who is shocked by all this can at least be consoled by the fact that we have bilateral healthcare agreements with countries such as Armenia, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Russia, Serbia, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Ukraine and Uzbekistan to name but a few — though not Canada or USA, which are two of the countries outside the EU most commonly visited by Brits.

What is the solution? We must have an ‘NHS passport’ to prove eligibility for free and unlimited care. This could be either physical or virtual but must include a photograph or a biometric scan to protect against fraud. In the meantime, the Department of Health regulations must be made rigid, unambiguous and less amenable to misinterpretation. Trusts must be supported to allow more vigorous investigation, unhindered by intimidation or the threat of legal challenge. British people moving abroad before retirement age should be required to continue National Insurance contributions or some other form of payment to retain NHS entitlement. The message must be that our NHS provides care free at the point of use, but only for eligible patients.

In 1948, when the NHS was created, the UK population was 49 million and almost exclusively indigenous. The exploitation described above could not have been foreseen. But now the UK population is 63 million, with freedom of mobility within the EU and with the world beyond. Heathrow, Manchester, Birmingham and other British airports are large global hubs. We have one of the most advanced health services in the world with the latest technology and therapies freely available.

William Beveridge and Aneurin Bevan would be outraged by the abuse of their flagship social reform and on such a scale. The time has come to protect our NHS. British taxpayers should not be funding an International Health Service.

Professor J. Meirion Thomas is a consultant surgeon with the NHS.

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  • Concerned

    Uk also has bilateral health agreements with Australia, the country where more brits go to settle outside the EU than any other. An incomplete article is often misleading.

  • an ex-tory voter

    Let’s go a step further than an NHS Passport. Let’s ensure that funding (beyond immediate emergency care) is allocated personally to the patient by virtue of their proven entitlement. Furthermore, let the funding be transferrable between any NHS Trust or facility which is capable of meeting their needs.

    • CausticWally

      What the heck is this about? Presumably “ex-tory voter, currently residing on planet Mars…..”

  • davestamp@asirt.org.uk

    “There is also anecdotal evidence that is even more frightening but undoubtedly true. There are stories of heavily pregnant women arriving in the UK because childbirth qualifies for emergency care and the child would be British, thereby providing the mother with residency rights.”
    Nonsense. Children born in the UK haven’t acquired British citizenship purely on account of where they were born since 1982. Did nobody responsible for printing this shoddy piece of scaremongering feel the need to carry out even the most elementary fact checks?
    And as for dragging Nye Bevan’s name into this ignorant tripe? Oi vei…

    • http://twitter.com/MackyDee1 Macky Dee

      Read Garry’s comment below he’s a health worker.
      Read (again) the lead article he’s a surgeon.
      These are people who ACTUALLY DEAL with these benefits / care scroungers.
      All you’ve done is believe what you’ve read somewhere

      • davestamp@asirt.org.uk

        I actually deal with these people too: I’m an immigration advisor and I’ve helped to develop and deliver a programme of CPD accredited training for health professionals about migrants’ health entitlements. If someone would like to pass my details to whichever Trust employs Professor Thomas, I’d be happy to discuss terms. There’s a glaring need.

        • http://twitter.com/ITmeetsPolitics Philip Virgo

          Goes to the heart of the debate. What is the true legal postion? What is the reality common practice? Who is responsible for reconciling the two? [including which MInister(s) – Home Office, Health etc.] What are their powers and budgets for doing so? Without answers to such questions we will not get any practical action plan for changing reality, only, hot air. I should perhaps have added “And what are our objectives?” beyond, perhaps “defining and deterring health tourists unless they are willing and able to pay for private treatment”.

        • fubar_saunders

          so… a non job that is dependent on spreading the largesse around so long as someone else is paying for it, then.

          Like the overwhelming majority of the left, the interest that you have is based, I would venture almost exclusively on those who work IN the NHS, as opposed to the SERVICE that it is meant to be delivering to the public.

          The very same pandering to the vested interests that has seen it turn from a public service into a self licking lollipop, whose example no one else in the world has seen fit to follow.

          • barsacq

            Ignorant, arse-licking bigot

          • fubar_saunders

            And f**k you too, left wing troll. You got no answer so you can only resort to insults. F**k you and the horse you rode in on.

      • barsacq

        Dimwit, surgeons don’t deal with bureaucracy, hospital clerks do. Crawl back into your ignorant bigot’s hole

  • http://twitter.com/freemvntblog Free Movement

    Some of this article (rant might be a better description) is worryingly wrong. Being born in the UK does not make a child British at all (that law was scrapped in 1983) and stopping treatment rarely amounts to a breach of human rights. In one infamous case the courts twice upheld a decision to remove a kidney dialysis patient even though it was accepted he would die quite miserably within two weeks. Link to case here: http://www.bailii.org/uk/cases/UKUT/IAC/2012/00397_ukut_iac_2012_gs_eo_india_ghana.html

    • http://twitter.com/MackyDee1 Macky Dee

      That’s like saying – People aren’t entitled to benefits as soon as they come here. That’s true – BUT HOW TRUE?
      They are entitled after 3 months (or if declared self-employed, entitlement kicks in after day 1).
      Anyone can check facts – IT’S HOW FAR YOU GO WHEN YOU CHECK THEM

      • CausticWally

        Splendid try Macky. Your comment is a fine example of what lawyers would call argument by ignoratio elenchi, or red herring to you and me. The point it, just what the heck has anything you’ve said here got to do with the issue under discussion?

        I too would like to believe the surgeon, if the question related to the issue of surgery. But since it appears to be about immigration status and entitlement to NHS treatment I think I’ll opt for someone who knows what he might be talking about.

      • davestamp@asirt.org.uk

        So if anyone can check facts, why didn’t the author of this piece of sub-tabloid tripe?
        And if you’re interested, a child born in the UK isn’t eligible for British citizenship until s/he’s spent the first 10 years of life here. And even *that* doesn’t regularise the mother’s status or make her eligible for public funds.

        • http://www.facebook.com/bernadette.bowles.50 Bernadette Bowles

          No, that’s wrong. Why don’t you check the UK border Agency website?

          • davestamp@asirt.org.uk

            Are you saying there’s evidence to refute what I’m saying on the UKBA website? Link, please.

      • barsacq

        No entitlement to benefits does not kick after day 1, whether you be British or foreign. You don’t half wrote a pile of ignorant tripe, Macky Dee

    • http://www.facebook.com/bernadette.bowles.50 Bernadette Bowles

      Yes, I remember that case. And yet we had that Nigerian woman who came here specifically to give birth on the NHS, and then remained to claim benefits. The laws are not consistently applied, and usually target entirely the wrong people.

  • Garry

    I worked in special needs education for many years, much the same is happening there with disabled or special needs children arriving often on tourist visas and being left with so called relatives, who then promptly claim any benefits or grants for specially adapted cars, housing etc. The advice from immigration and education was contradictory, and as we are dealing with really THE most vulnerable people it is simply brushed under the carpet.

    • http://www.facebook.com/bernadette.bowles.50 Bernadette Bowles

      While those who have paid tax and NI for years and then become sick or disabled find the safety net they’ve paid for whisked away.

  • Vee

    Is the author aware that William Beveridge founded the Council for Assisting Refugee Academics in 1933, thereby giving “foreigners” the opportunity to seek safety and security in the UK (and therefore access to good health). He’d be outraged would we? Hmm, I’m not so sure.

  • CausticWally

    “I am frustrated at seeing the NHS targeted by patients who are ineligible for free care, but who usually get through the net.”

    Are you saying that you are seeing patients who you think, if you had your way, would be ineligible for free care, or who actually are ineligible in terms of the current regulations? You make it pretty clear that doctors aren’t qualified to pronounce on immigration status, so what is the basis of you assertion that these people are ineligible?

    The stuff about how hard a job eligibility officers have is pure flannel – there to cover up the fact that you obviously resent providing treatment to non-British people irrespective of their legal entitlement. I would recommend that you just get on with the one job which you are – very highly – paid to do and leave the business of eligibility to others.

    • modira

      “You make it pretty clear that doctors aren’t qualified to pronounce on immigration status, so what is the basis of you assertion that these people are ineligible?”

      So you aren’t able to recognise that it is not impossible for a person with a reasonable level of intelligence – not to mention a great deal of experience – to make certain deductions based on information? Interesting…..!

      • CausticWally

        The task of determining a person’s immigration status requires knowledge and skills which are very different from those of a consultant surgeon. I would certainly have hoped the professor is intelligent but, as the facile inaccuracies in his articles (babies born in the UK are automatically British citizens, etc, etc) make it clear that he knows nothing about immigration law and regulation. He has chosen of his own free will to advertise his ignorance in this article which, frankly, doesn’t seem to me to be all an intelligent thing to do.

        • modira

          It’s simply not reasonable to assume that because he made an error about thinking babies born in the UK still acquire British citizenship that he knows nothing about immigration (or that he is not intelligent). It simply means he made an error about one specific area; you made an error in mentioning ‘his articles’ when there is only one – it doesn’t make you a dolt! People know all sorts of things that might not be relevant to their profession, either because of general interest or because their profession leads them into situations where they acquire that knowledge.

          I should think there are plenty of situations where it is incredibly clear that people are not properly entitled to treatment on the NHS!

          • CausticWally

            I think there’s a bit of a difference between a typing error and a central plank of an argument which says there are perverse incentives at work which encourage people to cross borders which patently do not exist in reality.

            I’m interested in your comment “I should think there are plenty of situations where it is incredibly clear that people are not properly entitled to treatment on the NHS!” Would like to have a go at suggesting what even one of these situations might look like?

          • davestamp@asirt.org.uk

            Are you actually suggesting that a typing error is equivalent to making a wholly unsubstantiated claim, factually entirely wrong, and proclaiming it be “undoubtedly true”? Breathtaking.

  • JoeJersey

    ‘Aneurin Bevan would have been outraged’ – really Professor Thomas? Perhaps you should read Bevan’s ‘In Place of Fear’ and these paras in particular:
    “One of the consequences of the universality of the British Health Service is the free treatment of foreign visitors. This has given rise to a great deal of criticism, most of it ill-informed and some of it deliberately mischievous. Why should people come to Britain and enjoy the benefits of the free Health Service when they do not subscribe to the national revenues? So the argument goes. No doubt a little of this objection is still based on the confusion about contributions to which I have referred. The fact is, of course, that visitors to Britain subscribe to the national revenues as soon as they start consuming certain commodities, drink and tobacco for example, and entertainment. They make no direct contribution to the cost of the Health Service any more than does a British citizen.
    However, there are a number of more potent reasons why it would be unwise as well as mean to withhold the free service from the visitor to Britain. How do we distinguish a visitor from anybody else? Are British citizens to carry means of identification everywhere to prove that they are not visitors? For if the sheep are to be separated from the goats both must be classified. What began as an attempt to keep the Health Service for ourselves would end by being a nuisance to everybody. Happily, this is one of those occasions when generosity and convenience march together. The cost of looking after the visitor who falls ill cannot amount to more than a negligible fraction of £399,000,000, the total cost of the Health Service. It is not difficult to arrive at an approximate estimate. All we have to do is look up the number of visitors to Great Britain during one year and assume they would make the same use of the Health Service as a similar number of Britishers. Divide the total cost of the Service by the population and you get the answer. I had the estimate taken out and it amounted to about £200,000 a year.Obviously this is an overestimate because people who go for holidays are not likely to need a doctor’s attention as much as others. However, there it is. for what it is worth and you will see it does not justify the fuss that has been made about it.
    The whole agitation has a nasty taste. Instead of rejoicing at the opportunity to practice a civilized principle, Conservatives have tried to exploit the most disreputable emotions in this among many other attempts to discredit socialized medicine.
    Naturally when Britons go abroad they are incensed because they are not similarly treated if they need the attention of a doctor. But that also I am convinced will come when other nations follow our example and have health services of their own. When that happens we shall be able to work out schemes of reciprocity, and yet one more amenity will have been added to social intercourse. In the meantime let us keep in mind that, here, example is better than precept.”
    Your claims about Bevan are as utterly unfounded as all the other claims in this disgraceful article.

    • modira

      We do NOT have the money to treat everyone who lands in the UK because they are sick! There is a difference between being civilised and being stupid. I Googled this man – he is a professor of surgical oncology and is fairly clearly dealing with patients who need lengthy and expensive treatment; I daresay I would be equally fed up with the system if I had to treat people who have never contributed to our society and who ‘float in’ from God knows where!

      • davestamp@asirt.org.uk

        Putting aside the obvious fact that there is no evidence at all to suggest yhat we are treating everyone who “lands in the UK”, if I ever fall ill, please God let me receive treatment from someone civilised and professional enough not to judge whether or not I might “deserve” his treatment.

    • jennifer robbins

      Joe Jersey appears to have completely missed the point of this article. The Author is not talking about holiday makers or short-stayers. When I go abroad I have travel insurance as I am sure most visitors to the UK coming here on holiday also have. That insurance is in place to cover us for emergency treatment whilst abroad. The Author is talking about those patients who come to the UK solely to seek medical treatment which they sometimes cannot get in their own country, or sometimes just because they wish to be treated in the UK. And Joe Jersey is totally ignorant about the cost of these patients. £200K would cover around three middle of the road operations and around three courses of chemotherapy. And I am understating this.
      Altruism is great and we should of course contine to welcome and treat patients like Malala Yousafzai and many others who have been the victim of conflict or cruel treatment or even natural disasters in their own Country. No-one in their right mind would say that we should not. Indeed the Author is not saying this. Many NHS doctors and other medical staff in the UK give up their leave and sometimes put themselves at great risk to go abroad to treat patients in great need. Their NHS Trusts support this. The UK is known for its welcome and its sense of fairness and this is not to be taken lightly.
      There is a but. In the current economic climate when the National Health Service budget is stretched and some Trusts are even going bankrupt, where do we draw the line? The shock of the situation at Stafford which has been in the news recently has brought home to many taxpayers that the very best value must be got out of the NHS so that Trusts can care for vulnerable members of our society, especially the young and the elderly. I am not sure why Joe Jersey picks on the Conservatives here. The 13 year labour Government did nothing about this situation either. This is not a Party Political issue.
      The problem here is the number of patients who come to the UK solely for treatment and manage to get round the system and have free NHS care and then go back home. It is a system that is easy to exploit because it is in complete chaos. The DoH needs to get to grips with the system and support the Trusts in taking these decisions. It also needs to seek out the doctors around the UK who register ineligible patients and pass them off as eligible for free care. There is often a fee involved in this.
      If I was dangerously and could not get the treatment I needed in the UK either because it was too expensive for the NHS to fund or unavailable for some other reason, how far would I get in travelling to the United States, one of the few places where the treatment might be available. The answer is I would have to fund the treatment myself and in advance, or I would not be entitlted to receive it. Why would I expect the United States to provide it for free?
      I admire the Author of this article. He has been working in the NHS for a very long time and is at the sharp end of this type of abuse. Easy for those of us not on the frontline to criticise. As we have seen in the news recently, it is not easy for those in the NHS to bring these types of problems to the public’s attention. I applaud him for doing it. Hopefully the article will spark an honest debate about this growing problem. The Author alone will have to take in his stride some of the vitriolic nonsense written in some of the comments written in reply. I doubt if many of those commenting have any experience of life in the modern NHS.

      • CausticWally

        I think you’ve missed the point being made by the critics of this article Jennifer. What is being said here that one would need a proton microscope to find any evidence in the professor’s piece that constitutes good evidence that significant numbers of people are coming to the UK to exploit the resources of the NHS. The point where is he bold enough to suggest a definite scenario – women using childbirth to obtain residence status as the mothers of British children – is fallacious since he hasn’t even got the law on the acquisition of citizenship status correct.

        You are absolutely right that the British public would benefit from having more brave whistleblowers in the NHS to alert us of the clear cases of scandal and outrageously poor service. Don’t mistake that sort of whistleblowing for this guff though, which appears to be based on prejudice against foreigners rather than objective fact.

        • jennifer robbins

          You are very naive. You clearly have no knowledge of the current NHS. The part of the article about women in childbirth does dilute the point of the article. If have had worked in or had friends within the NHS and knew what goes on at the sharp end on a daily basis, you would not be so misinformed. The cases cited in the article are the tip of the iceberg. There is a great deal of evidence available to those “in the know” and I assume the Author has good reason for not stating specifics in his article. I imagine you can think of why. It is enough that, hopefully, this subject will now be discussed.
          As I know when to stop, this will be my last post.

          • davestamp@asirt.org.uk

            So evidence to support Thomas’ anecdotal ramblings does exist, but can’t be made available. How convenient.

          • Marcus

            No. It’s not convenient, it is a scandal. Come to any hospital in London and you will see it with your own eyes.

            The fact that there are no clear statistics is a betrayal of the poor, elderly and infirm in this country who have paid in to the NHS and rely on it.

            They may decide to keep the policy of treating foreigners for chronic conditions after seeing the figures but they must be made public and if they aren’t then it’s a conspiracy. Or no one is even bothering to take a record, which is in itself a terrible betrayal of people that rely on the NHS.

            Why would you not see that?

          • CausticWally

            Fair enough that it is your last word, but since you lay the charge that I have no knowledge of the current NHS I think I ought to say that my wife is an NHS nurse working in a London hospital and I have seen rather a lot of the service’s clinics myself over the last year as a cancer patient.

            I confess to being terribly naive in the hope that the medical profession will take the ideals of its Hippocratic Oath seriously, particular that bit about, above all, benefiting the sick and doing them no harm or injustice. There’s no mention of this being dependent on their immigration status in that elevating and civilising aspiration to human decency.

  • modira

    Excellent article which hits the nail firmly on the head! There are some fairly straightforward steps that can be taken to avoid a great many of these problems. I have worked in two Middle Eastern countries, both of which required immigrant workers to be tested in their own country for HIV, TB, Hepatitis and pregnancy before they were allowed to travel; they were then retested as soon as they arrived in the country and immediately deported if any of these tests proved positive. We would save a fortune if we adopted this system for all ‘incomers’. Additionally, we shouldn’t let any ‘foreigners’ enter the country without proof of medical insurance adequate to cover all circumstances – let’s face it, WE have to take out cover when we travel to the US or Canada, or face not getting treatment!

    • CausticWally

      Sounds like your experience of working Middle Eastern countries has put you in close contact with the sort of brutal exploitation of migrant works which we know is absolutely standard under these cruel regimes. Very nice of of you to recommend we adopt the same system in the UK but I suspect that the re-invention of slavery would sicken most people in this country.

      • modira

        It doesn’t ‘sound’ like that at all – the medical requirements for foreign workers are entirely reasonable and exist for very good reasons; they cannot in any way be considered as any kind of exploitation and so if you have inferred that, it is because you choose to, NOT because of anything I have said. My experience of working in the Middle East most certainly has not put me in ‘close contact with any brutal exploitation’ at all, because I would not have anything to do with such activities.

        You are disingenuous to suggest that I have recommended we ‘adopt the same system’ in the same paragraph as your mention of brutal exploitation. Anyone who chooses to read my initial comment about the medical requirements for migrant workers will understand precisely what I was suggesting, and that it has no link whatsoever to any kind of brutality!!

        Perhaps you’d like to address the point that we simply cannot afford to run an international health service for all comers, rather than twist other comments ….. ?

        • CausticWally

          The point is we can’t afford not to run our health services as anything other than an international project. From its inception the NHS has depended on its ability to mobilise staff resources, knowledge and research from across the globe in order to fulfil its basic mission of looking after the needs of people resident in the UK. Check JoeJersey’s excellent post above and you’ll see that the founder of the NHS, the great Nye Bevan, realised that from day one of its foundation and this made him a fierce advocate of a service free and accessible to anyone present in the country.

          We live in a world in which people cross frontiers in their hundred of millions every year in order that our economic system functions properly. This being the case we should reorganise our welfare and health services to bring them into alignment with this economic reality.

          • retundario

            Irrelevant nonsense – access to international research and international employees is not in any way dependent on the service being accessible to international *patients*.

          • CausticWally

            Very true Marcus, and more is the pity. My point was not that international research currently entails services being provided to international patients. The point is that a big part of it proceeds through the dragooning of communities of poor people into drug trials and experiments with new treatments. Once they are considered safe enough to be offered to patients in the fortunate rich part of the world they are moved out of the reach of the people whose participation was vital for their development because the cost has become too great.

            But hey, don’t your worry about that. As long as you can lull yourself with the complacent delussion that

          • fubar_saunders

            Cant afford not to? And its justifiable still to only have UK taxpayers to fund this largesse?

            Just what planet are you on???

          • http://www.facebook.com/bernadette.bowles.50 Bernadette Bowles

            At a time when almost all those present in the country had either lived there for generations, or had come here to help us fight the war. In Nye Bevan’s world people did not cross frontiers in hundreds of millions unless they were with an army or fleeing from one. The world has changed, and we need to adapt.

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      • Marcus

        What utter drivel and well said refundario.

        The British public currently fund treatment of patients who are encouraged to attend our hospitals in their own native countries.

        This means:

        Money for care paid by pensioners in the U.K. is
        now insufficient to cover their health requirements and they have to
        accept substandard care. This is something the British public should
        never accept as it is a betrayal of the elderly.

        If people are paying for and want to pay for an international NHS then that should be made clear. They can then vote for a party that provides one.

        However to provide free health care to people that
        have not contributed to it with a wink a nudge is a disgusting thing
        to do and a betrayal of the people who rely in it and who we should protect.

        There must be transparency: with the public fully aware of how much they are spending on treatment of foreign patients.

        They may decide to maintain this service, but it is not up to you CausticWally to decide for them.

      • fubar_saunders

        usual left wing bleedling heart bollocks that believes that money grows on trees. Yawn.

      • http://www.facebook.com/bernadette.bowles.50 Bernadette Bowles

        My son did his Masters at an Australian university. He now works in the US. I don’t think they actually demanded tests for HIV etc for UK citizens, but he certainly had to declare that he was not suffering from any of those things and others in both cases. Also in both cases he had to show proof of health insurance to obtain his visa; in Australia he had to buy his own from an approved source, in America his intended employer had to show that they would insure him. As a student, in Australia he also had to show proof that he could not only pay his course fees but also had enough to cover living expenses for a year. I’m not sure where slavery comes into this, it seems a perfectly reasonable requirement.

        Bernadette Bowles

      • Guest

        Hi Caustic, not sure what your level of comprehension is when reading but I don’t see where Grint suggested anything you mentioned.

        Take care.

    • martin


  • bilimori

    Oh dear,

    I am British, but live in U.S. and covered by Medicare. I
    intend to return home and live out my remaining years in the land where my
    heart is.

    I have no special medical needs but inevitably some
    medical help might be necessary near the end of days

    How can I
    do that without being a freeloader?, as NHS will not bill Medicare.

    My life is not governed by the policies of any
    medical establishment, my life is governed by the needs of the heart.


  • Grrr8

    What a spiteful little article. Not a shred of data from the good professor, just lots of suggestion, innuendo and “it really must be true”. A lot of the comments in response are excellent.

    • Marcus

      What is spiteful is to take from the NHS when you have to contributed and have no right to claim treatment. That is spiteful. I would not claim free health care and take the funds of another countries health budget and thus take money from the nationals of that country.
      Would you?
      That is a despicable thing to do, but you probably think foreigners have a different moral compass or are all stupid so can’t be held responsible for their blatant abuse of another county’s health system.

      • Grrr8

        Err no. If you had read my comment instead of excreting your bile, you’d note that I am challenging the good professor to provide data to prove his claims. You like the good professor seem to think its proven fact. Unfortunately it’s no such thing.
        Sent from my iPad

        • Marcus

          Oh dear!
          There is no data. That is the scandal.
          A) The NHS is so incompetent it can’t even be bothered to keep any.
          B) There is data and it is not made public.

          Either way it is a betrayal of the people who are most in need of the NHS in this country.

          If everyone knew clearly how much of their taxes was going to fund people from abroad who are not eligible for NHS care, then people could make an informed decision on whether or not this is acceptable, they might even deicide to increase access to foreign patients.
          But it is their decision.
          Any other state of affairs is immoral.
          The fact you can’t seen this, says it all really.
          That you feel you know best and the public should just ‘leave it to philosophers’ just about sums up your contempt for the public, in particular the needy.

          • Grrr8

            I wouldnt rush to estimate my contempt for the needy. But you can bet i have plenty of comtempt for you. Based on the dialogue below, you are not very bright. Maybe a bit more reading and education and a bit less ranting about morality? Lower the whiskey tumbler for a while and smell the fresh air.
            Sent from my iPad

          • Marcus

            You clearly have no regard for the infirm and the vulnerable in this country. There simply is not the funding to provide them with the level of care that they could expect on the Continent and other Western countries, yet many have given an awful lot to this country.

            Many I am sure would be happy to give money to help those in need in other countries, more money I would imagine than a bigot like you.

            However to deny them knowledge of where there money is going and to give them second rate treatment due to lack of funding whilst financing treatment for people who are not eligable is theft, betrayal and completely amoral.

            Even one instance of it occurring is contemptible.

            You don’t care that the elderly in this country are betrayed and effectively robbed by sentient foreigners and lazy / complicit NHS staff because you think worrying over finance ‘should be left to philosophers’.

            I am stone cold sober and fully yet aware that you are the lowest of the low.

          • Grrr8

            Oooh, nothing like making a thicko cross. I suggest you go and independently find a number of these thieving foreigners, enough that their care makes even a minute difference to the NhS budget. Then we can talk.
            The best estimate I have of the NHS budget is £120-140 billion. The most thieving by Johnny Foreigner uncovered by anyone was £40 million by Panorama. Unless you can do better than that, I’ll go back to sleep now.
            Sent from my iPad

          • Marcus

            £40 million is a lot of money. I know someone who could not get the right feed for their child to stop them fitting and it cost £100 per week.

            Would you go for a hip replacement in Iceland and pretend to be eligible for treatment? Thus taking money out of the Icelandic system?
            Would you go to Senegal to get Cardiac medication as it was cheaper and pretend to be eligible?
            You probably would by the sounds of things.

            In both case both you AND the health system who allow you to make fraudulent claims are amoral.

            I am not angry; I am sad that someone can actually think they are suggesting something reasonable and kind and yet the reality of their opinion is so cruel.

            The data on how much we spend on the treatment of people who are not British citizens and are not eligible for treatment, is not readily available to the public who pay for it and trust in it. This is in itself the scandal.
            Until you accept this you will forever be on the wrong side of the argument.

          • Grrr8

            You need to stop talking about morality. Surprisingly Johnny Foreigner is a person too. It’s not immoral to treat someone ineligible for treatment. It’s just against policy. Suppose tomorrow the NHS decides that smokers won’t be treated for lung cancer. And a smoker manages to get treatment through the back door. Would you condemn him as being immoral?
            On the £40m, you assume that if this is saved it will save lots of needy people in the NHs. In a £140b budget this is chump change. It will change nothing.
            The one thing I do agree with is that the NHS should disclose whatever it does know about whether this “problem” exists.

          • Marcus

            Well done on your last sentence. You have at last shown some respect for your countryman and not contempt.

            Your smoking example is too tenuous and dreadful to deal with.

            However Johnny foreigner seeking medical care he is not entitled to and us providing it at any cost whatsoever to the people entitled to it (i.e. chicken feed or not ) IS immoral. Just as you popping off to Senegal/USA and claiming on their health service illegitimately is immoral.
            It’s theft.

            What a naïve man you are that you think all people who claim fraudulently from the NHS are too poor to afford the treatment in their own country. Medical treatments are often far cheaper in many other countries, hence cosmetic tourism. How do you know they are not from Canada and just wanted more money for a fancy car, stopped paying their premiums and came over here for treatment?

            The decision on whether or not to treat someone who is not eligible in the U.K. should be out in the open, be public, transparent and documented. Not left up to ‘philosophers’ as you so weakly put it. I can’t actually think of anything that should be left up to them. Perhaps you meant ethics committee but your poor knowledge of the topic let you down.

            Incidentally, one of the down sides of having this under the carpet is that patients often don’t disclose a full medical history to the doctors, occasionally with dire consequences.

          • Grrr8

            It is always “so” coz you say so isn’t it Marcus? Johnny Foreigner must be thieving bcoz you say so. Ineligible foreigners being treated on the NHS is immoral bcoz you say so. I always forget you can’t read, only talk.

          • Marcus

            It is immoral. Anyone can see that. Whether I say so or not.
            How on earth could taking peoples insurance away without their knowledge be anything else?

            Neither you nor I know the answer to the amount of money taken from those who have contributed and rely on the NHS.

            We also both know that no one else does. Particularly the NHS itself.

            That this number is not know is a travesty, either because it is so small as to be of no significance (as you postulate with no knowledge) or because it’s so large that it is a crime against this country and deprives people of the health care they deserve.

            These are facts, whether I say so or not.

          • Grrr8

            Broken record on morality ….. Screech!

            On the #, it is not with no knowledge. It is with the only public evidence we have, the £40m Panorama estimate.

          • Marcus

            An organisation that pays £1000,000s to keep people silent and an organisation that is responsible for 1000s of unnecessary deaths which it took years to detect, is no source at all.
            Let alone Panorama and the BBC. Did you see the blanked out report in to themselves? Where have you been for the last year?
            I am a broken record on morality because it is such a travesty to the poor and needy of this country that people just don’t have the will to sort the mess out.
            I bet if they did and it was handled properly there would be MORE treatment of foreigners and we could even embark on concepts such as increasing the renal transplant pool with other countries and help provide other countries with our service.
            The hospitals that did so could claim full charitable status. The possibilities are endless and are being squandered by criminal incompetence.

          • Grrr8

            I suspect that on morality a little guidance from Jesus may be helpful to you, “don’t point out the speck in your neighbours eye when you have a board in your own.”
            Sent from my iPad

          • Marcus

            I’m not the one suggesting we use ‘philosophers’ to ensure that people receive the correct level of care to which they are entitled.
            Remember that.
            I am however suggesting that we gather data and present it to the people who are effected. I also suggest we should have done this years ago and that we did not is a travesty.

          • CausticWally

            There you have it in a nutshell Marcus – either so small as be of no significance, or so large as to be a crime against the country.

            Call me naive – several have in these comments – but wouldn’t a large crime against the country produce a rather large evidence trail? It is the complete absence of this evidence trail which leads so many of us to conclude that we are operating at the small and insignificant end of the spectrum.

            I think your side of the argument really needs a whistleblower if you really think you have evidence of large scale abuse. I’d like to challenge you, or anyone else who really thinks they are privy to this evidence that would justify these concerns to step up and let us hear it. Let’s have the facts rather than the innuendo that people on your side have relied on until now.

            We can start with your renal clinic if you are up for it. Perhaps you can persuade the Spectator to give you space for the low-down on the Armenian and Colombian kidney patients who are gumming up the works in your hospital? (Word to the wise out there – don’t hold your breath……)

          • Marcus

            You are right on one thing yet again!
            Don’t hold your breath.
            You’re very wrong about going in to individual cases however. This breaches all sorts of ethics.

            However I am in contact with a National, no doubt the sort of national you read (joke).

            The first port of call is the Overseas visitors mangers (yes, such a role exists comrade). These are allegedly the people who sort this stuff out so we will make some FOI requests about the numbers of people they deal with, the amount foreign nationals cost, how much money is actually recouped etc etc. You are of course welcome to ask any questions you think of as I’m sure you want to sort this out as much as every one else.

            Watch this space (I presume you’re on Disqus) and I’ll keep you informed of my progress.
            Don’t however hold your breath as I expect to be met by obstacle after obstacle.

            Just another note:

            You say: “Call me naive – several have in these comments – but wouldn’t a large crime against the country produce a rather large evidence trail?”

            I’ve certainly done so and you are. Please refer to North Staffs if you honestly think a large crime against this country produces an obvious evidence trail.
            Secondly, how many immigrants came into to this country in the last 10 years illegally?
            Don’t know?
            Neither does anyone else, a crime to which as with North Staffs politicians eventually owned up to many years after the event, even with talk of an amnesty. An admission of rank incompetence if ever there was one.

          • Marcus

            Just keeping you up to date:
            The national is interested in the story. They are going to consult an FOI expert to tweak the requests next week and then submit them.
            The Overseas managers are apparently a new addition to the NHS and the day in the life of one will be covered soon on a documentary on the BBC called ‘a day in the NHS’ or something like that.
            More updates to follow.

          • davestamp@asirt.org.uk

            ‘What a naïve man you are that you think all people who claim
            fraudulently from the NHS are too poor to afford the treatment in their
            own country. Medical treatments are often far cheaper in many other
            countries, hence cosmetic tourism. How do you know they are not from
            Canada and just wanted more money for a fancy car, stopped paying their
            premiums and came over here for treatment?’

            Because people without leave to remain in the UK are (a) not eligible for secondary health treatment unless it’s urgent and immediately necessary and (b) are charged for such treatment.

          • CausticWally

            The fact that there is no data is not in itself a scandal. There’s no data establishing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin for that matter, for the simple reason that angel pinhead dancers do not manifest themselves as a quantifiable phenomenon in any world where normal human beings reside.

            It may well be that we will have to put the notion of health tourism in the same category of quaint mythology. Nothing has been said in either the professor’s article or these posts which would suggest we need to give it any better treatment.

          • Marcus

            ” There’s no data establishing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.”

            The consequences of that are rather less serious than people claiming health care they are not entitled to and thus depriving the British people who rely in the NHS, no?

            If nothing a professor says or other health care professional who live and work in central London and can see very clearly that the measures used to vet patients for treatment are woeful then you have a very NHS style mentality.

            ‘Only when there is bare faced mass death that is provable over time and is blindingly obvious must we investigate and pay people with public money to keep quite, only then comrade and not before’.

            I’m glad you’ve out lined how seriously you rank the possibility of further strain in the NHS it puts the rest of your posts in perspective.

          • Marcus

            Page 12 evening standard

          • fubar_saunders

            health tourism a quaint mythology…. such a sneery, dismissive, left wing thing to say. Trolling par excellence…

  • danfascia

    Meirion is correct, and I commend his courage speaking out on this topic. We are already busy enough without having to crosscheck the credentials and entitlement of every (and it is not far off that in London) patient as well as delivering them quality medical care.

    In many years working in London hospitals the subversive tactics employed by ineligible foreign patients never cease to amaze me. Stories of “off the Heathrow Express and straight into A&E” are no longer a novelty. Multiple names and addresses, bogus translators who know the game, bringing a different patient for a test or treatment to the one who came to the first appointment… all standard tactics.

    I do not understand why people mount such a reaction towards Meirion’s (characteristically embellished) article. That a consultant surgeon at the top of his career should feel so strongly to speak out about this, should awaken the British public on how the NHS are being coerced into pissing away their health budget trying to heal the World.

    • davestamp@asirt.org.uk

      You appear to think that we should feel deference to Thomas because of his surgical skill. It’s not something I can even comment on. But in relation to his knowledge of immigration, he is demonstrably, dangerously and idiotically wrong.

      • Marcus

        He is wrong about nothing and you are betraying the British public and most importantly the infirm in our society by denying it. Come to a hospital with me and I will show you countless people who can not speak English getting free and expensive treatment for chronic conditions. Could they possibly have passed Blunkett’s British test if they don’t speak English?

        • davestamp@asirt.org.uk

          How would you know either that the treatment they are getting is free or that they’re not entitled to it?

          • Marcus

            I don’t. But how many people who can’t speak any English are eligible? If you run a clinic and a high percentage of your patients can not speak English then what are the criteria for eligibility? Are they all asylum seekers? Have the all passed Blunketts test?
            Maybe, but it would be remiss not to consider that they maybe taking resources from others if they aren’t eligible. When you enquire as to the eligibility you quickly realise that no one knows the answer. This is unacceptable not least to the people who rely on the NHS.
            It is not hard to know when you are dealing with a system that is incompetent and the system clearly is. Hence niether of us have any data on the numbers.

          • davestamp@asirt.org.uk

            I don’t know how many who “can’t speak English” are eligible. Or how many people who can speak English, but prefer to speak their native tongue when distressed and anxious, as many people who are unwell will obviously be. As far as I am aware, however, fluency in the English language does not determine one’s eligibility for NHS treatment.

            But thank you, at least, for making it transparent just who you do think should be considered potentially ineligible; basically, anyone who looks or sounds a bit foreign.

          • Marcus

            ‘fluency in the English language does not determine one’s
            eligibility for NHS treatment.’

            You are absolutely right. However if you can’t speak it then it does raise the possibility that you have not
            fulfilled all the criteria to be eligible for free health care. Rather than if you had a broard Yorkshire accent.

            Would you think it odd that a Colombian doctor would just want a reassurance you are eligible for treatment particularly with regards as to how far he should progress with your treatment if you rocked up at a clinic in Bogota saying ‘Hello, No speako Spanish but my blood test suggest I have El chronico condition, what?’
            You may afterall, as you suggest is the case in the U.K., have to pay for it yourself and therefore he could taylor the treament so that you have the cheaper and more urgent tests in the U.K. but say the more expensive test in your own country where it maybe cheaper.

            This concern should and could can be easily allayed.
            However there is no clear method for doing so or keeping data as to the number of people refused treatment from abroad.
            This needs to change. It maybe that more funding could be found to help the people refused but the data needs to be available.
            That you don’t want this data is up to you, but others should be given the choice and you should not try to stop them.

            As to your for your last sentence, that’s just a bit pathetic.

          • davestamp@asirt.org.uk

            American citizens, as far as I’m aware, usually have a perfect grasp of the English language. But may not necessarily be entitled to free secondary health treatment at present. Or were those not the kind of migrants you had in mind?

          • Marcus

            Yes, well done that is another good example.
            A strong foreign accent, though fluent in English, can be a clue that an individual has not long been living in a country.

            Davestamp on holiday in Java sadly becomes a bit ill so off he pops to the doctor.

            ‘Hello, I would like to be investigated for my illness’.

            ‘Certainly sir. Your symptoms are suggestive of a chornic condition I’m sorry to say. Now we need to work out how far down the road we are going to treat you and how much this may cost you, if indeed you are not eligible for free treatment in Java. You are fit to fly home and you maybe financially better off doing so’.

            ‘Screw you maaan, you freakin Nazi! I’m a citizen of the world! What kind of doctor are you trying to find out how much I’m covered in your health system? You are a Nazi who hates foreigners’

            Would it go something like that?

          • davestamp@asirt.org.uk

            So perhaps you’d be happier if hospital trusts were to appoint something along the lines of an Overseas Visitors manager, charged with the responsibility of determining who was eligible for what, and whether particular courses of treatment should be charged for, leaving frontline NHS staff to get on with the business of healing the sick? Oh, wait…

          • Marcus

            ….Yes, do please wait because when you go and try and discuss the patient’s management, sometimes in the company of your patient in order to work out what’s best for them you discover….the overseas manager has the level of competence and understanding of a confused child, just like the ‘moving and handling manager’ or any number of these ‘managers’ who are often less use than nothing at all.
            The ‘manager’ has no knowledge of the patient, who can not themselves speak English and you have no translator. ‘What a fruitful exercise you think’ as you disrupt your clinic.

            Let’s get all these overseas visitors mangers to just send in their records. 1 per hospital presumably?
            It won’t take long to find out how many people are refused and how many accepted and under what grounds…Or will it?

          • Marcus

            Bearing in mind I work in central London and I am constantly dealing with foreign patients, be they tourists, ex-pats or whatever.
            How many times do you think this ‘overseas visitors manager’ has contacted me in order to try and liaise about the best course of management for a given patient. One both clinically and financially optimal for the patient and the NHS.

            Like say ‘Should he wait to have his MRI in the U.K. or in Argentina as he is not covered for this in the U.K. How urgent is the MRI? Can it wait?’

            That’s right, you’ve guessed it!
            The competent NHS overseas visitors manager has NEVER contacted me to consult as to the best course of management for a patient.

          • davestamp@asirt.org.uk

            You seem to be suggesting that the fact that, in your opinion, the overseas visitors manager in your hospital isn’t up to the job demonstrates the existence of wholesale abuse of the NHS by overseas visitors. Which is nonsense.

            Perhaps you should be raising this as an internal concern, rather than emoting all over the place about “betrayal”.

          • Marcus

            Almost, I’ll just correct your statement a bit and then we’re there:

            “You seem to be suggesting that the fact that, in your experiance based on working in over 15 hospitals throughout the U.K., most notably in London where you deal with a high number of foreign patients. The fact that the overseas visitors ‘manager’ in every single one of the hospitals isn’t up to the job and has in fact never been in contact with you in conjunction with being told by patients they were adivsed to seek medical care in the U.K. demonstrates that the system is quite possibly open to abuse by overseas visitors as no one has a handle on this. How widespread is uncertain but that the systems is ripe for exploitation is very likely and worth raising as an issue.”

            Yup, that’s exactly what I’m saying.

          • davestamp@asirt.org.uk

            I suppose that depends on whether your definition of someone being “up to the job” should be weighted by the amout of credence they pay your opinion. Has it not occurred to you that it might be possible to make a professional judgement on whether overseas visitor chages might apply without your input?

            What I seem to be hearing is “these people are idiots. Why don’t they listen to me?” Which is illustrative given your claim, in the face of all objective evidence, that Thomas is “wrong about nothing”.

          • Marcus

            “Has it not occurred to you that it might be possible to make a professional judgement on whether overseas visitor changes might apply without your input?”

            Yes, that’s the problem. You either didn’t read, purposefully ignored or didn’t understand what I’ve said in my last posts.

            These ‘managers’ have never once been in to contact with me or anyone else I’ve ever spoke to yet I deal with foreign patients all the time.

            A simple message like ‘Hi I’m the overseas manager, does you patient x require the following tests to be preformed n the U.K. as they are not eligible for treatment in the U.K. and we are trying to tailor their treatment here so that it does not cost too much money’

            One e-mail/phone call/visit once ever asking those sorts of questions would alleviate my worry that these ‘manager’ are not in fact useless.

            When I have been to other counties and been ill (The Oman, Czech Republic, France, USA) I have been in close discussion with the clinicians as to the price of procedures and what should be best dealt with in my own country.
            This has to be a clinical discussion and though primarily conducted through the doctor and patient may involve a third party, but this is not strictly necessary.

            This has never occurred in all my time in the NHS.

            That is why I know these people are idiots, because they never liaise with the doctors on what are complex issues.

            By the way for anyone that’s is reading/will ever read this thread this google ‘asirt’ and you will might start to understand the sort of agenda this man has.

          • http://www.facebook.com/bernadette.bowles.50 Bernadette Bowles

            We all have a National Insurance number, presumably on a database somewhere. How hard would it be to put a marker on it for NHS eligibility? It could go on automatically when an immigrant has paid NI for 6 months, for instance; be removed if someone reports that they have emigrated. And then it could be quickly checked at the doctor’s or hospital reception.

            In every other country, if you need medical treatment, you will be asked for proof of your entitlement or insurance documents at the start. Unless you’re unconscious, I suppose. If you go to a private hospital in this country, you will be asked for your insurance details. These things only take a couple of minutes, and if other people can manage them, why can’t we? Some hospitals may need a dedicated staff member, some surgeries may need an extra part-timer, but more money would be coming in to cover the costs.

          • Peter Tennant

            …and could easily be paid for by scrapping HS2, which would be a godsend.

          • CausticWally

            “taylor the treament”….????

            Is that supposed to be read with a broad Yorkshire accent? I reckon you’ve just hopped off the boat from Bogota yourself my lad. Learnio the old lingio yourself before you lecture others…

          • Marcus

            I’m dyslexic.
            Don’t make fun of minorities.

          • thierrytt

            Whoever diagnosed you as a dyslexic was probably a con artist.

  • Seth_the_pig_farmer

    When living and working abroad I needed emergency treatment while visiting the UK. I had full medical insurance and told the NHS hospital of my ineligible status and offered to pay.

    My offer was declined.

  • Ela Mar

    “Duty of candour” is there to increase patient safety and ensure good working environment – not to get your own back when challenged for unethical behaviour. I’m a nurse and currently work in Public Health specialist post. In my job I unfortunately sometimes have to highlight discriminatory practices on the part of the health care staff. Believe me – it saves a lot of trouble later as the consequence of you as a doctor refusing to help the individual in your care may be a serious case review of death on the streets. This is the reality I work with – not an abstract concept of “health tourism” conjured up by tabloids and politicians which existence is not supported by any research.

    You are in respected profession and you throw behind such discriminatory attitudes your professional integrity and trust that the public grants you as a default . But, in this instance, you spoke out clearly outside the remit of your professional practice and, sadly, to the detriment of your patients.

  • Sharehoods

    Not a single number, fact or data in this article.

    Can someone tell us/extract data on:
    – What is the total costs represented by foreigners over British Citizen on NHS budget?
    – prove that most treatment those foreigners undertake are heavy, intense treatments?

    Until then, your article is just opinions and non-justified fear.

    • Marcus

      That there is no data is the scandal itself.
      Make an FOI request.

      • Sharehoods

        Useful link on this topic:


        “In the absence of systematic data and evidence, much of the debate is based on anecdotal evidence provided by service providers and other stakeholders”; moreover, it is “ignored the contribution migrants make to the provision of public services.”

        Eventually, NHS rely on and benefits from foreigners… and here is why:
        “In addition to the taxes they pay, migrants contribute to the provision of public services in at least two specific ways that have not yet been analysed adequately. First, they can provide skills that are currently not available or in short supply in the UK. Second, the employment of migrants facilitates the provision of public services at a cost that is lower than would be the case if those services were dependent solely on the supply of British workers. Immigration is thus a form of “subsidy” to public services that benefits service providers, consumers and the taxpayer. Potential adverse impacts of this subsidy include downward pressures on wages (or at least wage growth) of British workers employed in public services. They also include, in some low-waged sectors such as social care, an increasing reliance on and entrenchment of low-cost service provision.”

        • Marcus

          Thanks for this link.

          It highlights exactly the sort of problem we are up against.

          “..immigration status is recorded inconsistently (or not at all) when public services are provided.”

          That is a betrayal of the people who pay taxes in this country and most importantly of the people who require government help.

          “First, they (immigrants) can provide skills that are currently not available or in short supply in the UK.”

          Agree, but let’s address why the public in this country can not look after it’s own rather than paying people not to work and employing foreign people to do the jobs we should be doing. After all these immigrants will have children and as they become assimilated they will become just as adverse to the work their parents did unless we address the problem.

          “Second, the employment of migrants facilitates the provision of public services at a cost that is lower than would be the case if those services were dependent solely on the supply of British workers.”
          ‘Foreign workers can be made to work for less or for a sum that their British counterparts would not work for.’

          What on earth is good about that?

          The worst part of this useless non-research is that it tries to draw a parallel between a 65 year old foreigner with a chronic condition coming to Britain for free treatment which they have not earned and a foreign nurse working in A and E.
          The concept being “You can have one with out the other” Of course you can and they are not, in anyway related.

          Does everyone in Denmark die as there is no one to work in their hospitals? Czech republic?
          No, they have very good health service without the need to import cheaper foreign Labour. It can be done.
          They also have a stronger economy without the need to have mass immigration. In fact, so do many countries. Why is that then if mass immigration is so essential to all economies?

          “migrationobservatory” what a load of cobblers. They start off by saying that there is no data but then continue their useless piece as if there is.
          Real shoddy nonsense.

  • AlexanderGalt

    This will no doubt be the next scandal.

    But the scandals only reveal a greater weakness. The fact that those who are supposed to love the NHS were not burning with righteous anger at the betrayal of their beloved NHS means it is doomed.

    There’s a good take on this in: “Soul Dead NHS” at:


  • erhgrhjgtrtrhhth

    How about the government pass a law that only British people can use the NHS, close the borders

    Sign this petition to restrict Bulgarian and Romanians from entering the UK:


    Over 40,000. At 100,000 it goes to Parliament

    • CausticWally

      Yes, and while we are at it we can pass a law saying that foreigners shouldn’t be allowed to WORK for the NHS! Oh, hang on a mo…. that’ll mean the NHS goes down the pan, doesn’t it…..

      • retundario

        Worked better in days of all-British staff

        • Grrr8

          Next time you go to the doctors ill or in pain I suggest you insist on being treated only by “British” staff. We look forward to seeing how you get on.

        • davestamp@asirt.org.uk

          When did the NHS *ever* have all-British staff?

  • barsacq

    The only figures currently available for the cost to the NHS is £40m over the past four years, or £10m a year, in other words peanuts out of a budget of £105bn. It would probably cost more that to recoup it all.

  • dr.spock

    I work in a large, inner-city UK hospital as a doctor and I think Prof.Thomas has highlighted an important issue that the politicians are keen to ignore. The test for accessing NHS care in my hospital is a single question “Are you eligible for NHS care?”, carried out at our outpatients reception desk by a clerk. Unsurprisingly the answer is always “yes”. There is a simple solution – bring in identity cards with biometric data , which would bring us in line with other European Countries who have taken active steps to protect their health services. It would also take us back to the launch of the NHS – when identity cards were universal.

    • davestamp@asirt.org.uk

      ‘The test for accessing NHS care in my hospital is a single question “Are you eligible for NHS care?”, carried out at our outpatients reception desk by a clerk.’
      If that’s true, you’re breaching DOH guidelines.

      • http://twitter.com/ITmeetsPolitics Philip Virgo

        The point about ID cards when teh NHS was created is most pertinant. My ID Card Number remained my NHS Number until the separate numbering systems were brought in for health and employment/benefits for reasons I heard but never thought valid (I was an IT professional at the time and the allegations it was to do with necessary systems requirements was profoundly stupid). I can remember my ID card card number because I had to quote it at so many clinics, surgeries and hospitals before treatment as I grew up. I cannot member the new one because no-one ever asks and the card sits with my passport for overseas travel only.

    • barsacq

      No you’re not a doctor, just another one of those spotty trolls sitting in a basement somewhere vainly dreaming of being something you never will be and sadly jerking off when you’re weary of lying to yourself

  • fitz fitzgerald

    Britannia’s udder must be denied those who would misuse it : why not, lads ?

  • Jkaur

    Davestamp please come and spend time working on the NHS floor like i do. I wholeheartedly agree with Thomas. Like him I work in a specialist hospital in London and I share his sentiment exactly. NHS staff feel scared to question patients eligibility for treatment due to fear of a potential legal case held against them. This is so wrong. I feel overwhelmed by policies, protocols, systems of work all of which do not adequately address the problem.

    There are also inconsistencies within the system. I have had experiences where doctors have decided ‘they are very ill- dont charge them’ or ‘they really cant afford it transfer them to the NHS system’. So as much as one may try the rules are NOT consistent.

    We are crying out for a simple system to decipher what our rights as NHS workers and patients are. An NHS style ‘passport’ or something similar would certainly help frontline staff to establish if a patient is eligible.

    Ask yourself this.. How would you feel if you were to watch your loved ones sitting on a life saving surgery waiting list die knowing the patients in front were potentially not eligible for that operation??

    • davestamp@asirt.org.uk

      ‘How would you feel if you were to watch your loved ones sitting on a life saving surgery waiting list die knowing the patients in front were potentially not eligible for that operation??’

      See, again, if people actually knew what they were talking about, life would be so much easier. This could not happen because *everybody* is eligible for treatment which is urgent or immediately necessary. So- thankfully- life saving surgery is not the preserve of a select few. And if you’re suggesting that people in need of such life saving treatment are miraculously lifting themselves en masse from their sick beds to fly to the UK for it, frankly you’re an idiot.
      The discretion in such cases isn’t whether the patient is eligible for NHS treatment- it;s whether they should be charged for that treatment. And whether or not people are charged has nothing to do with the consultant; Trusts employ Overseas Visitors’ Managers to determine who is eligible to be charged for what, freeing the medical staff to carry on with the job of providing professional, competent and non-judgemental treatment to the patient. So NHS Staff *should* “feel scared” to question patients about their eligibility for treatment, unless they’re employed as an Overseas Visitors’ Manager.
      Basically, just do the job you’re paid for.

    • CausticWally

      You sound like a very dangerous healthcare professional Jkaur. Are you really saying that in a real life situation you would want to challenge a doctor’s opinion that a patient is ‘very ill’ in order to press up the option of charging them? I suspect you must have been trained in an American hospital where patients are allowed to die if evidence of an insurance policy or a credit card isn’t found on their person

      Your final question really sets the cat amongst the opinions. Why leave the speculation on the rather obscure point about entitlement based on residence status. Why not invite resentment to take root in the system because the person having that vital operation before me has been unemployed for the last five years whilst I’ve been a working taxpayer. Or maybe they are disabled and have a quality of life below mine? Or maybe they’re just old and ought to accept that its their turn to die anyway?

      My advice to you is just get on with your job and leave speculation about who is eligible – whatever that means – to philosophers.

      • Marcus

        ‘My advice to you is just get on with your job and leave speculation
        about who is eligible – whatever that means – to philosophers.’

        You are a a very unpleasant man.

        We have substandard care for many of our disabled and infirm and you think that it is not anyone’s duty to make sure that the people who are the rightful recipients of NHS treatment should be able to get the correct treatment and not have it compromised through lack of funds from people who have knowingly abused the system.
        Bearing in mind that those people are often the poorest in our society?
        What sort of person are you?

        • CausticWally

          Please, I beg you, just ONE credible bit of evidence that the predicament of our health service is down to “people who have knowingly abused the system.” The good professor made an ass of himself relying on nonsense in his article and the comments that have followed simply rehash tabloid-inspired gossip about health tourism. If it really is a problem on the scale of, say, North Stafford type neglect of patients, or NHS trained consultants moonlighting in the private, or the appalling waste caused by the PFI-scandal and the inanity of the internal market, then the evidence would be there in abundance. But there is nothing here whatsoever to suggest that a much-needed NHS operation has been delayed by even a single day because a real example of a health tourist has been found blocking up the system.

          God, you are right, I am unpleasant – reading this twaddle and bilge – always making the same point completely unsupported by evidence and never moving the argument on. I intend to be unpleasant until all this anti-immigrant garbage goes down to hell.

          • Marcus

            You really don’t understand the nature of incompetence and corruption I’m afraid.
            You give North Staffs as an example to prove that if there is a problem in the NHS then we would all know about it.
            Now, I am going to give you some time to think about the example and eventually you will realise that it proves the exact opposite.
            It proves that the monolith that is the NHS can hide any number of crimes, including the unnecessary deaths of over 1000 people ! Good God man, why have you suddenly got faith in the NHS telling the truth. They intimidate and pay people £1000’s to make sure they don’t.

            I don’t know the answer to the amount of money taken from those who have contributed to and rely on the NHS.
            And no one else does. Not least the NHS itself.
            That this number is not know is a travesty, either because it is so small as to be of no significance or because it’s so large that it is a crime against this country and deprives people of the health care they deserve.

          • CausticWally

            Thank you Marcus. It is as plain as day that you really hate the NHS. It couldn’t be clearer now why you chose to spread these lies and innuendo about a service which most people in these country value very highly.

          • Marcus

            Hate the NHS? Eh ?
            What a pathetic attempt to bring any form of rational debate down to the level of emotion.
            We aren’t discussing your favourite painting here or where you like to go on holiday.
            We are discussing an organisation tasked with saving lives.
            The NHS is not a child or a close friend any more than the railway or the water company is. It provides a service and sometimes it has done so appallingly badly. Having done so it has paid people with public money to keep quiet in order not to be found out.

            Any attempt to quieten discussion about the good and the bad the NHS provides by trying to ascribe to it emotional liability as you have done is a sure sign of a lost debate but far more pertinently of an attempt to stifle discussion about an organisation entrusted with saving lives.

            We all love the army but we all accept they gave our boys crap Land Rovers which were under armoured for far too long. To have stifled debate about this by saying ‘lots of people love the Army stop being nasty’ would have been very much the wrong thing to do. As is your weak attempt is above.

            I have not spread a single lie or even rumour about the NHS in any posting on this discussion.

          • CausticWally

            Well I’d expect crap Land Rovers would provide the sort of evidence that you can’t hide in flannel. Your problem is that your claims that treating non-eligible foreigners is a significant drain on the resources of the NHS produces nothing in the way of tangible evidence or data. Until it does I say it’s all flannel.

          • Marcus

            We don’t know if they do cause or drain on resources or not.
            That is the main issue.
            The other issue is that you presume 20 years of anecdotal evidence from the doctor mean nothing.

            I guarantee you that if you require surgery and the surgeon says ‘In my experience surgery in patients of your age/condition rarely fair well’ you will listen and take note and not spout accusatory drivel like you’ve done on here.

            I will tell you this much, I know of patients who were told to go to England to get free health care by their own doctors. One was an Armenian.
            I can also tell you that the number of patients at the Renal unit I’ve worked in in London, who barely speak English or don’t speak it at all is higher even than it is in other areas of medicine at the same hospital. There must be a reason for this. How many of these patients passed Blunkett’s test?
            Maybe all of them but it does ring alarm bells.

            Remember that just after seeing one of these patients all doctors will then turn to the next 90 y/o Jamaican tube driver brought here in the 60’s or Chelsea pensioner and say:
            ‘Sorry sir, you’ll have to get the bus in for your dressing changes as we don’t have the money for a district nurse/out of hours GP’.

            Now maybe they are happy to see their funds go to a foreigner but it is not up to you or I to decide that: it’s up to themselves and they should have that data.

            If you don’t support that then I don’t think you’ve got a leg to stand on.

          • CausticWally

            Funnily enough I have spent a fair bit of time hanging around in urology clinics over the past year having my prostate cancer sorted out. I’ve been very happy to converse with surgeons, radiotherapists and specialist nurses about my condition and have generally followed the advice they’ve given me.

            I’ve also noted that a lot of the people in the queues for their appointments are obviously not ‘British born and bred’ and a few aren’t that fluent in English. That’s okay though, because this is all happening in London, where 40% of the population were born abroad and for some people learning a foreign language is a real challenge. I’m fine with all this since I chose to live in London because I enjoy its multicultural ethos.

            The one thing that would truly and deeply upset me is if someone came along trying to sow the idea that I am getting inferior treatment explicitly because some of the other people that I meet in queues in my clinic are frauds who aren’t ‘eligible’ for the treatment they are receiving. I suppose if they offered up even a shred of evidence saying why this might be the case I would feel obliged to listen to them, but that never seems to happen and when I hear allegations of this sort it’s pretty clear that what is underpinning it is an unpleasant streak of xenophobia..

            Your incoherent account of knowing an Armenian and this having something to do with people originally from abroad using your renal unit is not very compelling and just seems to confirm a malicious motive for getting involved in this discussion. I might not have 30 years experience as a consultant surgeon but I do have 62 years experience in being a human being and I know bullshit when I see it. There are plenty of examples of bullshit arguments in the professor’s article, and your comments.

          • Marcus

            Is it possible that during your chats at the urology clinic you perhaps don’t get the same history from patients as a doctor? Questions like ‘how long have you had this?’
            ‘where did you have this surgery?’
            Maybe in taking a history from a patient it can often become all to apparent that they are highly likely to not be eligible for treatment?
            The fact that 45% of people in London are immigrants is taken into consideration when arriving at this conclusion as 45% of the patients you see that day will have been foreign.
            The example of the Armenian is to try and give you some idea that even in countries with very little history of connections with the U.K. the doctors advise patients to go to the U.K. to seek medical care, as it’s free and they are successful. It is an area that needs to be monitored and transparent and there is no cogent argument to the contrary.

          • davestamp@asirt.org.uk

            But it isn’t the consultant’s job to judge who is “eligible”. Or yours.

          • Marcus

            I agree completely with that. However it is very clear that it is no ones job and as we are at the coal face to not report that we are seeing an increasing number of patients who seem very unlikely to be legitimate users of the NHS and we ask for some facts and figures to either disprove or prove that the system is not being abused and we discover that there aren’t any.
            We are often telling patients that we don’t have enough money for x or y and we are not accountants either but we need to be absolute sure that the system is not being abused and it is painfully obvious that no one is keeping tabs on it.

          • CausticWally

            I would imagine that it would become apparent when, as you say, this information is provided.

            The funny thing is that, despite the opportunity to accumulate evidence of this sort so very, very little ever emerges which points to ‘health tourism’ taking place on any significant scale. Instead we have tabloid-style articles constructed around the thinnest of half-digested ‘facts’ and innuendo which never really gets beyond the claim that because we have a free health service, and they are foreigners, then they must be taking us for a ride.

            Despite the fact that I am in the queue for treatment in an overstretched and often poorly managed health service, I refuse to subscribe to xenophobic arguments of this sort.

          • Marcus

            And you are right not to subscribe to them.
            Neither should you be blind to non-xenophobic arguments.
            Is it possible that the system is being abused?
            Is it the sort of system in which it is of little concern whether it is abused or not?
            I think once both questions are answered it is apparent we must sort this mess out and have a clear and transparent system by which all foreigners are treated fairly.
            That is currently not the case.

          • davestamp@asirt.org.uk

            Well, if the NHS is as dire as you suggest, why are you convinced that people from all over the world are paying good money to flock to the UK to use it?

          • Marcus

            I don’t think anyone is flocking. Remember it’s free. Completely free. That is a pull for many. I don’t think it’s dire either. Perhaps relatives of North Staffs patients would disagree.

          • davestamp@asirt.org.uk

            But it *isn’t* “completely free” for people from overseas.

          • Marcus

            No, we have these rigorous over seas managers to stop that. How much money have they recouped in the last 5 years in total?
            Now there sir is an FOI going a begging. In fact, I’m on it.

          • just me

            I came Merseyside as relative youngster in 1968 – and only recently did I contemplate on how our NHS was truly used and abused. The people I knew then were migrants from where is now known as part of the EU. They would bring relatives over and during their ‘visits’ they would receive intense and lengthy treatment/operations for heart conditions etc etc and numerous intervention into health conditions. With this hindsight I now understand that they (despite being able to pay for their care) used the NHS to foot the bill for all care and medications. There are many reasons which has brought the NHS to its knees

          • CausticWally

            Piffle! EU nationals started coming to the UK after 1973 as workers, contributing to the economy and paying taxes. Through out all these years you are more likely to have met an EU national in the role of a doctor or a nurse than a patient. Enough of this ignorant, prejudiced lying!

        • fubar_saunders

          hes worse than unpleasant, he’s a dickhead.

  • Roy

    It has to said; the British think they somehow have a morel obligation to distribute largess to all the people of the globe. Whether it be to live, be housed, have spending money, send for relatives, or have their medication seen to. No well run business could countenance such a delusional sanctuary, nor should any well run country be so blatantly unthinking towards the taxpayer who ultimately has to either find the wherewithal or finance the borrowing.

    • fubar_saunders

      slight correction, Roy, should read “The British Self-loathing, post-colonially embarrased left”.

      There. Thats better.

      • Roy

        You are perfectly correct. I’m thinking they have a death wish. They believe all their misinformed PC thinking beyond any rational prospect.

  • AlexanderGalt

    This will no doubt be the next scandal.

    But the scandals only reveal a greater weakness. It’s the reaction or non-reaction of those who are supposed to love the NHS like the BBC and Guardian that dooms it. Why aren’t they burning with righteous anger at the betrayal of their beloved NHS?

    There’s a good take on this in: “Soul Dead NHS” at:


  • revkevblue

    I have a national insurance number that proves I have been paying for NI stamps since 1957, thats what they used to work out, how many stamps I had paid for, to qualify for my pension.

    So why are doctors not interested in your NI number, they only want your NHS No, which I believe is dished out if you have not got one, as soon as you register with a doctor, and has no bearing on how long; or how much you have paid into the system.

  • smileandwave

    The British people are being taken for all they have due to a combination of naivety and arrogance. Their forefathers built their empire by taking advantage of indigenous peoples on foreign shores who demonstrated similar traits. A few hundred years on and the wheel has now turned.

    • fubar_saunders

      and the likes of Dave, Wally and the rest of their self loathing, white post colonial guilt mates are heaping it on by the shovel full as well.

      Talk about visiting the sins of the forefathers on the kids….

      but hey. So long as it salves their “consciences” and sticks it to the “forces of conservatism and bigotry” and they themselves dont have to suffer, who cares, right?

  • davestamp@asirt.org.uk

    Here’s some actual research about migrant health inequality. You know, with facts and everything. http://www.refugeecouncil.org.uk/policy_research/research

  • Overseas Visitors Manager

    It is refreshing to read Professor J.Meirion Thomas article on Health Tourism, he has taken the time to get an understanding of the Overseas Visitors Charging Regulations 2011 (as amended). He has a sympathy and understanding of the difficulties faced by all Overseas Visitors Managers role, the problems they face in connection with the regulations and lack of support they face daily from there Trusts. The current legislation along with the European Freedom of Movement Directive allows easy access to the NHS by all nationals. Even bigger than this the current legislation also allows EU nationals to obtain easy access to the benefit system, many arrive in the UK looking for work and once they have obtained their national insurance number are able to access Job seekers allowance, so even if they are not “Ordinarily Resident”, they will be exempt for free NHS secondary care by virtue of the Treaty Right Job Seeker.

    The Uk is haemorrhaging billions but no true figures are kept as each Trust is translating and operating the regulations in different ways and some not at all. There are no audits of the operation of the regulations which make it easy for fraudulent activity, both from patients and NHS Hospitals. Many hospitals are getting paid twice for Overseas Visitors as once the patient is Issued the NHS number at GP registration, the number will ensure payment from the Commissioning Group/Primary Care and if the patient is identified as chargeable but not declared and pays for their treatment the Trust will receive a double wammy.

    The poor tax payer is funding all of this abuse, Overseas Managers have been reporting their findings for many years but unfortunately the government has allowed this situation to reach pandemic proportions, it is time they addressed this situation with urgency,

  • Guest

    At last, a breath of fresh air from a well respected Consultant. About time some one spoke up about a service that we should all be proud of and is being abused. More Prof.Thomas please

  • Anthony

    At last, a well respected Consultant who, by the sounds of things has had enough of the abuse of our NHS service. Come, join our country, pay your taxes and use the services that you add to. Stop abusing the NHS. Well spoken Prof

  • helen jones

    Try going to any other country in the world including the EU and getting free medical care


    Our NHS and our medical teams are mugs and idiots

    Time the NHS got real and worked like the USA hospitals

    NO insurance …………….NO TREATMENT

  • Clump

    Cost to NHS – no more than 0.15% of the its budget, and probably less: http://fullfact.org/factchecks/cost_of_health_tourism_to_the_nhs-28866

  • Peter Tennant

    Oh I see, we should make all services free to all and sundry, so people can come here from anywhere in the world to be treated for anything and everything. What a load of bull. We go elsewhere and have to have medical insurance, so should any incomer, be they permanent or not. Some of us have contributed to the system for over 45 years. If you don’t pay your dues you’re not in the club!

  • just me

    Words Words…Britain may well just lie on the sodden ground and be the door mat…at least that would be fitting for the politicians

    • CausticWally

      It became exactly that doormat years ago when the working class started voting Tory and global capitalism was invited in through the front door and the rest of us were told to queue up for scraps. Meanwhile people like you were missing the point completely and joined in the frenzy of immigrant bashing. Wake up and smell the coffee you dozy chump.

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    she was been cured and she was testifying of how she was cured from HIV by
    dr odumodu and i decided to also email this man and tell him about my
    problem and as i did that he told me to send him some of my personal
    details which i did and then he told me to wait for one week. After one
    week he told me to go for another HIV test, which i did and to my greatest
    suppress i was confirmed negative. all thanks be to dr odumodu and if you
    know that you are in this same problem email him now on
    (drodumoduspiritualpower@gmail.com ) and
    i strongly believe that he will help you just as he did mine. wish you good

  • Jeffrey Dowling

    i was diagnosed with HIV/AIDS for over 5 years which made loose my job and my relationship with my fiance after he discovered that i was having HIV, he departed from me i tried all my best to make him stays with me, but neglected me until a friend of mine on Facebook from Singapore told me Great healer, who will restore my life back with his powerful healing spell, he sent me the email address to contact and i quickly contacted him, and he said my condition can solved, that he will treat the disease immediately only if i can accept trust him and accept his terms and condition, i Agreed because i was so much in need of help by all means, so i did all he want from me and surprisingly on Sunday last week He sent me a text, that i should hurry up to the hospital for a checkup, which i truly did, i confirm from my doctor that i am now ( HIV NEGATIVE) my eyes filled with tears and joy, crying heavily because truly the disease deprived me of many things from my life, This is a Miracle, Please do not en-devour to email dr.apetorkushrine@gmail.com or dr.apetorkushrine@hotmail.com for healing and solution or website: http://drapetorkushrine.webs.com/

  • Mathins Weliam

    I am from USA am here to give my testimony about a

    doctor who help me in my life. I was infected with HIV virus in the year of

    2015,i went to many hospitals, churches for cure but there was no solution

    out, so I was thinking how can I get a solution out so that i cannot loose my

    life, I lost everything I have my husband run away from me and also took my

    children along because of my sickness. One day I was in the river side

    thinking the next step to take if it is to jump into the river so that I can

    loose my life totally or just think where I can go to get solution. so a lady

    walk to me telling me why am I so sad and i open up all to him telling her my

    stories, she told me that she can help me out that’s the reason she normally

    come here to help people so that they can be cured because she was into this

    problem before, she introduce me to a doctor how cast spells for people and

    gave me he number and email so i called him and also email him.so i gather

    all my faiths and put in all interest to contact him through his Email

    address at okororspell@outlook. com , so after i have mailed him of helping

    get my disease cured, i respond to me fast as possible that i should not be

    afraid, that he is a truthful and powerful doctor which i firstly claimed him

    to be. So after all set has been done, he promise me that i will be healed

    but on a condition that i provide him some items and obeyed all his oracle

    said. I did all by accepting his oracle fact and only to see that the

    following week DR.okoror mail me on my mail box that my work is successfully

    done with his powers, i was first shocked and later arise to be the happiest

    woman on earth after i have concluded my final test on the hospital by my

    doctor that i am now HIV- Negative. My papers for check are with me and now i

    am happy and glad for his miraculous help and power.With these i must to

    everyone who might seek for any help, either for HIV cure or much more to

    contact him now at these following email now,Email: okororspell@outlook. com

    ” sir thank you so much for your immediate cure of my disease, i must say for

    curing my disease, i owe you in return. Thanks and be blessed sir. or you can

    call him via his

  • phil joshua

    I discovered I was HIV+ in 2004. I was devastated and ashamed. But today I have learnt so much about HIV in my life. Since I started working in 2005 and had a medical aid from r Odia with the help of his herbal herbs, I checked my CD4 count every 6 months. To my GP’s suprise, it stayed between 532 and 528 all these years. I am not doing anything different and I don’t know what I’m doing right to stay with dat count on CD4 this long. I don’t disclose my status at a go but I insist on protection. Though the partner who accepted my + status dumped me for unknown reason, I still stay positive with life. I don’t see death sentence with HIV, but I see life to be lived to the fullest. People die everyday in different ways, I will die but I know and positive that it will not be by HIV as I look after myself and the people around me. I want to go open with my status especially my family, but I’m scared. I’m still gathering strength, one day I will. Come what may, I will still have my life to live and enjoy.
    My mother wont accept his lobola, the rest of the family just wont speak to me, even about my future plans. It’s been tough but i have this firm belief that things will be ok. The worst part is that I come from an “educated” family and I thought that they would understand, Im embarrassed by how they’ve become, it’s a shame. I know they feel they are protecting me, but they’ve also lost my trust somehow.While they see disgust in me, I see someone who’s protected me throughout my pain, i want you out there to know that it never a shame to be infected with HIV positive but the shame is when you know and didnt do a thing about it.
    Dr aduwawa is really a great make and bless with roots and herbs, I want to advice everyone with HIV to contact him Via ( drodiaherbalherbscenter@yahoo.com ) for the cure.

    I really hope your efforts to curb the spread of this virus will penetrate through these young minds,so that they make better and wise choices for themselves.

    For those who are already infected, they could learn a thing or two from you!

    Contact him: ( drodiaherbalherbscenter@yahoo.com )

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